From nikhil.whitaker at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 08:41:04 2009 From: nikhil.whitaker at gmail.com (Nik) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:11:04 +0530 Subject: CROCLIST: Mythology Message-ID: Hi Guys, I am doing a small display on mythological aspects of a few species of crocs at the Croc Bank. With regards C. porosus, what relevance do croc totems/storyboards (or do they have different relevances) have to people living on the Sepik River, New Guinea? Is it only about ancestors, or is there some actual warding off evil spirts relevance to this? Any ideas? Best Nik Nikhil Whitaker Curator Madras Crocodile Bank Trust P.O. Box 4, Mamallapuram, Tamil Nadu 603104 Mob: ++ 91 98403 79164 Fax : ++91 44 2747 2958 www.madrascrocodilebank.org http://madrascrocbank.blogspot.com I AM IN THE PROCESS OF GOING THROUGH DOZENS OF EMAILS, AND AM TRYING TO REPLY TO ALL. HOWEVER, IF I DONT REPLY IN A TIMELY FASHION PLEASE CALL ME ON 98403-79164. CHEERS -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090422/65f2ca28/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 9922 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090422/65f2ca28/attachment.jpe From lynne at lynnekelly.com.au Wed Apr 22 09:55:57 2009 From: lynne at lynnekelly.com.au (Lynne Kelly) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:55:57 +1000 (EST) Subject: CROCLIST: Mythology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50323.60.230.126.119.1240386957.squirrel@www.eumyeducation.com> Hi Nik, I wrote about the mythology and crocs in my book "Crocodile: evolution's greatest survivor". As a result of the research for that book and the next one, "Spiders: learning to love them", I discovered that the way the mythologies of non-literate cultures talk about animals is far more complex than warding off spirits and about "ancestors" - which can either be people who have died or the mythical beings who created the land and all in it. They are completely different meanings, and usually both are relevant to oral cultures. It is the second which relates to the natural history of animals and totems. Totems and stories can be related, but are different. It can get very complex, very quickly! The Songs and stories of the ancestors are a way of encoding accurate natural history within a culture which doesn't write things down. I found that each culture told stories which accurately reflected their own local croc species. So the new guinea oral tradition will have both C. porosus and C. novaeguineae. But they will be different stories. The Iatmul people of the Middle Sepik River have creation and initiation stories about C. porosus. In my croc book, page 24-5. Different people along the river will have different stories, so you must specify which tribe you are using. I am now doing my doctorate on the way oral tradition all over the world encode natural history so accurately - they need to store the knowledge somehow! It's incredible stuff! cheers, Lynne > Hi Guys, > > I am doing a small display on mythological aspects of a few species of crocs > at the Croc Bank. With regards C. porosus, what relevance do croc > totems/storyboards (or do they have different relevances) have to people > living on the Sepik River, New Guinea? Is it only about ancestors, or is > there some actual warding off evil spirts relevance to this? Any ideas? > > > Best > > Nik > > > Nikhil Whitaker > > Curator > > Madras Crocodile Bank Trust > > P.O. Box 4, Mamallapuram, > > Tamil Nadu 603104 > > Mob: ++ 91 98403 79164 > > Fax : ++91 44 2747 2958 > > www.madrascrocodilebank.org > > http://madrascrocbank.blogspot.com > > > > I AM IN THE PROCESS OF GOING THROUGH DOZENS OF EMAILS, AND AM TRYING TO > REPLY TO ALL. HOWEVER, IF I DONT REPLY IN A TIMELY FASHION PLEASE CALL ME ON > 98403-79164. CHEERS > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Croclist mailing list > Croclist at lists.gatorhole.com > http://lists.gatorhole.com/mailman/listinfo/croclist > Croclist Image Website: http://reptilians.org/croclist/ -- Lynne Kelly author, educator: http://www.lynnekelly.com.au EUMY Education: http://www.eumyeducation.com From crocodilians at web.de Wed Apr 22 10:04:53 2009 From: crocodilians at web.de (Ralf Sommerlad) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 10:04:53 +0200 Subject: CROCLIST: Mythology Message-ID: <2077109112@web.de> Hallo Lynne and Nik, sounds like very interesting stuff. Anyway, just ordered a copy of your book via Amazon Best Ralf > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: "Lynne Kelly" > Gesendet: 22.04.09 09:56:17 > An: "The Crocodilian List" > Betreff: Re: CROCLIST: Mythology > Hi Nik, > > I wrote about the mythology and crocs in my book "Crocodile: evolution's > greatest survivor". > > As a result of the research for that book and the next one, "Spiders: learning > to love them", I discovered that the way the mythologies of non-literate > cultures talk about animals is far more complex than warding off spirits and > about "ancestors" - which can either be people who have died or the mythical > beings who created the land and all in it. They are completely different > meanings, and usually both are relevant to oral cultures. It is the second > which relates to the natural history of animals and totems. Totems and stories > can be related, but are different. It can get very complex, very quickly! > > The Songs and stories of the ancestors are a way of encoding accurate natural > history within a culture which doesn't write things down. I found that each > culture told stories which accurately reflected their own local croc species. > So the new guinea oral tradition will have both C. porosus and C. > novaeguineae. But they will be different stories. > > The Iatmul people of the Middle Sepik River have creation and initiation > stories about C. porosus. In my croc book, page 24-5. Different people along > the river will have different stories, so you must specify which tribe you are > using. > > I am now doing my doctorate on the way oral tradition all over the world > encode natural history so accurately - they need to store the knowledge > somehow! It's incredible stuff! > > cheers, > > Lynne > > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > I am doing a small display on mythological aspects of a few species of crocs > > at the Croc Bank. With regards C. porosus, what relevance do croc > > totems/storyboards (or do they have different relevances) have to people > > living on the Sepik River, New Guinea? Is it only about ancestors, or is > > there some actual warding off evil spirts relevance to this? Any ideas? > > > > > > Best > > > > Nik > > > > > > Nikhil Whitaker > > > > Curator > > > > Madras Crocodile Bank Trust > > > > P.O. Box 4, Mamallapuram, > > > > Tamil Nadu 603104 > > > > Mob: ++ 91 98403 79164 > > > > Fax : ++91 44 2747 2958 > > > > www.madrascrocodilebank.org > > > > http://madrascrocbank.blogspot.com > > > > > > > > I AM IN THE PROCESS OF GOING THROUGH DOZENS OF EMAILS, AND AM TRYING TO > > REPLY TO ALL. HOWEVER, IF I DONT REPLY IN A TIMELY FASHION PLEASE CALL ME ON > > 98403-79164. CHEERS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Croclist mailing list > > Croclist at lists.gatorhole.com > > http://lists.gatorhole.com/mailman/listinfo/croclist > > Croclist Image Website: http://reptilians.org/croclist/ > > > -- > Lynne Kelly > > author, educator: http://www.lynnekelly.com.au > > EUMY Education: http://www.eumyeducation.com > _______________________________________________ > Croclist mailing list > Croclist at lists.gatorhole.com > http://lists.gatorhole.com/mailman/listinfo/croclist > Croclist Image Website: http://reptilians.org/croclist/ > From jjundt at dzs.org Wed Apr 22 18:32:49 2009 From: jjundt at dzs.org (Jeff Jundt) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:32:49 -0400 Subject: CROCLIST: Crocodile shipping containers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5CFDA4686BA5134DA0C03C7BCE63E6AE12E610FF59@DZS-MAILSRV.dzs.org> We don't have any good containers on hand for shipping small crocodilians and will have to have one built by our carpenter shop. Does anyone have some photographs of a typical shipping crate for crocs that you can post up or send directly to me? We're looking to build one for an animal that is ~4 feet in length. I have something in mind, but I'm sure there are a lot of good ideas out there as far as crates are concerned so would like to incorporate them if we can for this build. Thank you, Jeff ________________________________ [cid:image8b111b.jpg at d5b43433.88d34e1c] Jeff Jundt | Curator of Reptiles Detroit Zoological Society | 8450 W. 10 Mile Rd. | Royal Oak, MI 48067 Phone: 248-541-5717 ext. 3159 || Fax: (248) 691-4194 jjundt at dzs.org Celebrating & Saving Wildlife P Please consider the environment before printing this email. ________________________________ This email contains information from the sender that may be confidential, legally privileged, proprietary or otherwise protected from disclosure. This email is intended for use only by the person or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure, copying, distribution, printing, or any action taken in reliance on the contents of this email, is strictly prohibited. If you received this email in error, please contact the sending party by replying in an email to the sender, delete the email from your computer system and shred any paper copies of the email you printed. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090422/3f6f9df2/attachment-0001.htm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image8b111b.jpg at d5b43433.88d34e1c Type: image/jpeg Size: 31018 bytes Desc: image8b111b.jpg at d5b43433.88d34e1c Url : http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090422/3f6f9df2/attachment-0001.jpe From manum at shaw.ca Wed Apr 22 19:01:32 2009 From: manum at shaw.ca (Manumouse) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 10:01:32 -0700 Subject: CROCLIST: Crocodile shipping containers In-Reply-To: <5CFDA4686BA5134DA0C03C7BCE63E6AE12E610FF59@DZS-MAILSRV.dzs.org> References: <5CFDA4686BA5134DA0C03C7BCE63E6AE12E610FF59@DZS-MAILSRV.dzs.org> Message-ID: <2B71F235644542C6BE617618E0AD27DE@ManumousePC> Hi, I have built several containers for large gators. You will have to contact the airline as well as US Fish and Wildlife regarding shipping standards. You need to make sure the crate complies with the IATA Live Animal Regulations. I made mine big enough for the gator to be comfortable but not be able and turn around. This keeps them relatively calm. Also, put some soft material on the top/lid (I used bubble wrap in the past). This prevents them hurting their heads. Of course make sure there are lots of holes in the crate. The crate needs to be pretty solid with the sides reinforced. The lid should have hinges that can easily be opened and closed. I used cable ties to close them. This allows rapid opening and closing. Hope this helps. Manuela ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Jundt To: 'The Crocodilian List' Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:32 AM Subject: CROCLIST: Crocodile shipping containers We don't have any good containers on hand for shipping small crocodilians and will have to have one built by our carpenter shop. Does anyone have some photographs of a typical shipping crate for crocs that you can post up or send directly to me? We're looking to build one for an animal that is ~4 feet in length. I have something in mind, but I'm sure there are a lot of good ideas out there as far as crates are concerned so would like to incorporate them if we can for this build. Thank you, Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Jundt | Curator of Reptiles Detroit Zoological Society | 8450 W. 10 Mile Rd. | Royal Oak, MI 48067 Phone: 248-541-5717 ext. 3159 || Fax: (248) 691-4194 jjundt at dzs.org Celebrating & Saving Wildlife P Please consider the environment before printing this email. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This email contains information from the sender that may be confidential, legally privileged, proprietary or otherwise protected from disclosure. This email is intended for use only by the person or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure, copying, distribution, printing, or any action taken in reliance on the contents of this email, is strictly prohibited. If you received this email in error, please contact the sending party by replying in an email to the sender, delete the email from your computer system and shred any paper copies of the email you printed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Croclist mailing list Croclist at lists.gatorhole.com http://lists.gatorhole.com/mailman/listinfo/croclist Croclist Image Website: http://reptilians.org/croclist/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090422/8b4741ee/attachment-0001.htm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 31018 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090422/8b4741ee/attachment.jpe From jjundt at dzs.org Wed Apr 22 19:24:46 2009 From: jjundt at dzs.org (Jeff Jundt) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:24:46 -0400 Subject: CROCLIST: Crocodile shipping containers In-Reply-To: <2B71F235644542C6BE617618E0AD27DE@ManumousePC> References: <5CFDA4686BA5134DA0C03C7BCE63E6AE12E610FF59@DZS-MAILSRV.dzs.org> <2B71F235644542C6BE617618E0AD27DE@ManumousePC> Message-ID: <5CFDA4686BA5134DA0C03C7BCE63E6AE12E610FF5D@DZS-MAILSRV.dzs.org> Thanks Manuela, I should have probably been more specific in my request to the list. I need some photos to give to the carpenters for building the crate. I've personally built crates before, but I need something for the carpenters to look at to build from since they haven't done it. I don't have any pictures of the crates that I built and I don't want to have to be looking over the carpenter's shoulders during the entire build process or I might as well do it myself again, which I'm trying to avoid. :) Thanks again, Jeff [cid:imagea95baf.jpg at ebcdc100.39da4d95] Jeff Jundt | Curator of Reptiles Detroit Zoological Society | 8450 W. 10 Mile Rd. | Royal Oak, MI 48067 Phone: 248-541-5717 ext. 3159 || Fax: (248) 691-4194 jjundt at dzs.org Celebrating & Saving Wildlife P Please consider the environment before printing this email. ________________________________ This email contains information from the sender that may be confidential, legally privileged, proprietary or otherwise protected from disclosure. This email is intended for use only by the person or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure, copying, distribution, printing, or any action taken in reliance on the contents of this email, is strictly prohibited. If you received this email in error, please contact the sending party by replying in an email to the sender, delete the email from your computer system and shred any paper copies of the email you printed. ________________________________ From: croclist-bounces at lists.gatorhole.com [mailto:croclist-bounces at lists.gatorhole.com] On Behalf Of Manumouse Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 1:02 PM To: The Crocodilian List Subject: Re: CROCLIST: Crocodile shipping containers Hi, I have built several containers for large gators. You will have to contact the airline as well as US Fish and Wildlife regarding shipping standards. You need to make sure the crate complies with the IATA Live Animal Regulations. I made mine big enough for the gator to be comfortable but not be able and turn around. This keeps them relatively calm. Also, put some soft material on the top/lid (I used bubble wrap in the past). This prevents them hurting their heads. Of course make sure there are lots of holes in the crate. The crate needs to be pretty solid with the sides reinforced. The lid should have hinges that can easily be opened and closed. I used cable ties to close them. This allows rapid opening and closing. Hope this helps. Manuela ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Jundt To: 'The Crocodilian List' Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:32 AM Subject: CROCLIST: Crocodile shipping containers We don't have any good containers on hand for shipping small crocodilians and will have to have one built by our carpenter shop. Does anyone have some photographs of a typical shipping crate for crocs that you can post up or send directly to me? We're looking to build one for an animal that is ~4 feet in length. I have something in mind, but I'm sure there are a lot of good ideas out there as far as crates are concerned so would like to incorporate them if we can for this build. Thank you, Jeff ________________________________ [cid:image001.jpg at 01C9C34D.8B816160] Jeff Jundt | Curator of Reptiles Detroit Zoological Society | 8450 W. 10 Mile Rd. | Royal Oak, MI 48067 Phone: 248-541-5717 ext. 3159 || Fax: (248) 691-4194 jjundt at dzs.org Celebrating & Saving Wildlife P Please consider the environment before printing this email. ________________________________ This email contains information from the sender that may be confidential, legally privileged, proprietary or otherwise protected from disclosure. This email is intended for use only by the person or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure, copying, distribution, printing, or any action taken in reliance on the contents of this email, is strictly prohibited. If you received this email in error, please contact the sending party by replying in an email to the sender, delete the email from your computer system and shred any paper copies of the email you printed. ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Croclist mailing list Croclist at lists.gatorhole.com http://lists.gatorhole.com/mailman/listinfo/croclist Croclist Image Website: http://reptilians.org/croclist/ ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090422/91a4396d/attachment-0001.htm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 31018 bytes Desc: image001.jpg Url : http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090422/91a4396d/attachment-0001.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: imagea95baf.jpg at ebcdc100.39da4d95 Type: image/jpeg Size: 31018 bytes Desc: imagea95baf.jpg at ebcdc100.39da4d95 Url : http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090422/91a4396d/attachment-0001.jpe From manum at shaw.ca Thu Apr 23 00:58:27 2009 From: manum at shaw.ca (Manumouse) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:58:27 -0700 Subject: CROCLIST: Crocodile shipping containers In-Reply-To: <5CFDA4686BA5134DA0C03C7BCE63E6AE12E610FF5D@DZS-MAILSRV.dzs.org> References: <5CFDA4686BA5134DA0C03C7BCE63E6AE12E610FF59@DZS-MAILSRV.dzs.org> <2B71F235644542C6BE617618E0AD27DE@ManumousePC> <5CFDA4686BA5134DA0C03C7BCE63E6AE12E610FF5D@DZS-MAILSRV.dzs.org> Message-ID: <903890582F2A49E7BBD3A9B91503995D@ManumousePC> Hi, I can take a pic of one of my huge ones and they can then go from there? I can send it to you by this weekend. Cheers, Manuela ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Jundt To: 'The Crocodilian List' Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:24 AM Subject: Re: CROCLIST: Crocodile shipping containers Thanks Manuela, I should have probably been more specific in my request to the list. I need some photos to give to the carpenters for building the crate. I've personally built crates before, but I need something for the carpenters to look at to build from since they haven't done it. I don't have any pictures of the crates that I built and I don't want to have to be looking over the carpenter's shoulders during the entire build process or I might as well do it myself again, which I'm trying to avoid. J Thanks again, Jeff Jeff Jundt | Curator of Reptiles Detroit Zoological Society | 8450 W. 10 Mile Rd. | Royal Oak, MI 48067 Phone: 248-541-5717 ext. 3159 || Fax: (248) 691-4194 jjundt at dzs.org Celebrating & Saving Wildlife P Please consider the environment before printing this email. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This email contains information from the sender that may be confidential, legally privileged, proprietary or otherwise protected from disclosure. This email is intended for use only by the person or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure, copying, distribution, printing, or any action taken in reliance on the contents of this email, is strictly prohibited. If you received this email in error, please contact the sending party by replying in an email to the sender, delete the email from your computer system and shred any paper copies of the email you printed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: croclist-bounces at lists.gatorhole.com [mailto:croclist-bounces at lists.gatorhole.com] On Behalf Of Manumouse Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 1:02 PM To: The Crocodilian List Subject: Re: CROCLIST: Crocodile shipping containers Hi, I have built several containers for large gators. You will have to contact the airline as well as US Fish and Wildlife regarding shipping standards. You need to make sure the crate complies with the IATA Live Animal Regulations. I made mine big enough for the gator to be comfortable but not be able and turn around. This keeps them relatively calm. Also, put some soft material on the top/lid (I used bubble wrap in the past). This prevents them hurting their heads. Of course make sure there are lots of holes in the crate. The crate needs to be pretty solid with the sides reinforced. The lid should have hinges that can easily be opened and closed. I used cable ties to close them. This allows rapid opening and closing. Hope this helps. Manuela ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Jundt To: 'The Crocodilian List' Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:32 AM Subject: CROCLIST: Crocodile shipping containers We don't have any good containers on hand for shipping small crocodilians and will have to have one built by our carpenter shop. Does anyone have some photographs of a typical shipping crate for crocs that you can post up or send directly to me? We're looking to build one for an animal that is ~4 feet in length. I have something in mind, but I'm sure there are a lot of good ideas out there as far as crates are concerned so would like to incorporate them if we can for this build. Thank you, Jeff ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeff Jundt | Curator of Reptiles Detroit Zoological Society | 8450 W. 10 Mile Rd. | Royal Oak, MI 48067 Phone: 248-541-5717 ext. 3159 || Fax: (248) 691-4194 jjundt at dzs.org Celebrating & Saving Wildlife P Please consider the environment before printing this email. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email contains information from the sender that may be confidential, legally privileged, proprietary or otherwise protected from disclosure. This email is intended for use only by the person or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure, copying, distribution, printing, or any action taken in reliance on the contents of this email, is strictly prohibited. If you received this email in error, please contact the sending party by replying in an email to the sender, delete the email from your computer system and shred any paper copies of the email you printed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Croclist mailing list Croclist at lists.gatorhole.com http://lists.gatorhole.com/mailman/listinfo/croclist Croclist Image Website: http://reptilians.org/croclist/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Croclist mailing list Croclist at lists.gatorhole.com http://lists.gatorhole.com/mailman/listinfo/croclist Croclist Image Website: http://reptilians.org/croclist/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090422/f9bf43b2/attachment-0001.htm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 31018 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090422/f9bf43b2/attachment.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 31018 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090422/f9bf43b2/attachment-0002.jpe From Nick.Rigby at epa.qld.gov.au Thu Apr 23 01:10:22 2009 From: Nick.Rigby at epa.qld.gov.au (Nick Rigby) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 09:10:22 +1000 Subject: CROCLIST: Mythology Message-ID: <4F51CF02179D2247B9ED6AFA54E2DF6E0B459057@BNEXVS02.prod.ad.internal> Hi Lynne Is you book available in Australia Cheers Nick Rigby Director Wildlife Management Branch Queensland Department of Environment and Resource Management Ph. 07 3405 7900 -----Original Message----- From: croclist-bounces at lists.gatorhole.com [mailto:croclist-bounces at lists.gatorhole.com] On Behalf Of Lynne Kelly Sent: Wednesday, 22 April 2009 5:56 PM To: The Crocodilian List Subject: Re: CROCLIST: Mythology Hi Nik, I wrote about the mythology and crocs in my book "Crocodile: evolution's greatest survivor". As a result of the research for that book and the next one, "Spiders: learning to love them", I discovered that the way the mythologies of non-literate cultures talk about animals is far more complex than warding off spirits and about "ancestors" - which can either be people who have died or the mythical beings who created the land and all in it. They are completely different meanings, and usually both are relevant to oral cultures. It is the second which relates to the natural history of animals and totems. Totems and stories can be related, but are different. It can get very complex, very quickly! The Songs and stories of the ancestors are a way of encoding accurate natural history within a culture which doesn't write things down. I found that each culture told stories which accurately reflected their own local croc species. So the new guinea oral tradition will have both C. porosus and C. novaeguineae. But they will be different stories. The Iatmul people of the Middle Sepik River have creation and initiation stories about C. porosus. In my croc book, page 24-5. Different people along the river will have different stories, so you must specify which tribe you are using. I am now doing my doctorate on the way oral tradition all over the world encode natural history so accurately - they need to store the knowledge somehow! It's incredible stuff! cheers, Lynne > Hi Guys, > > I am doing a small display on mythological aspects of a few species of crocs > at the Croc Bank. With regards C. porosus, what relevance do croc > totems/storyboards (or do they have different relevances) have to people > living on the Sepik River, New Guinea? Is it only about ancestors, or is > there some actual warding off evil spirts relevance to this? Any ideas? > > > Best > > Nik > > > Nikhil Whitaker > > Curator > > Madras Crocodile Bank Trust > > P.O. Box 4, Mamallapuram, > > Tamil Nadu 603104 > > Mob: ++ 91 98403 79164 > > Fax : ++91 44 2747 2958 > > www.madrascrocodilebank.org > > http://madrascrocbank.blogspot.com > > > > I AM IN THE PROCESS OF GOING THROUGH DOZENS OF EMAILS, AND AM TRYING TO > REPLY TO ALL. HOWEVER, IF I DONT REPLY IN A TIMELY FASHION PLEASE CALL ME ON > 98403-79164. CHEERS > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Croclist mailing list > Croclist at lists.gatorhole.com > http://lists.gatorhole.com/mailman/listinfo/croclist > Croclist Image Website: http://reptilians.org/croclist/ -- Lynne Kelly author, educator: http://www.lynnekelly.com.au EUMY Education: http://www.eumyeducation.com _______________________________________________ Croclist mailing list Croclist at lists.gatorhole.com http://lists.gatorhole.com/mailman/listinfo/croclist Croclist Image Website: http://reptilians.org/croclist/ Department of Environment and Resource Management formerly Environmental Protection Agency +----------------------------------------------------------------+ Think B4U Print 1 ream of paper = 6% of a tree and 5.4kg CO2 in the atmosphere 3 sheets of A4 paper = 1 litre of water +----------------------------------------------------------------+ !DEPTSTAMP1! From lynne at lynnekelly.com.au Thu Apr 23 02:10:22 2009 From: lynne at lynnekelly.com.au (Lynne Kelly) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:10:22 +1000 (EST) Subject: CROCLIST: Mythology In-Reply-To: <4F51CF02179D2247B9ED6AFA54E2DF6E0B459057@BNEXVS02.prod.ad.internal> References: <4F51CF02179D2247B9ED6AFA54E2DF6E0B459057@BNEXVS02.prod.ad.internal> Message-ID: <49191.60.230.126.119.1240445422.squirrel@www.eumyeducation.com> Hi Nick, > Is you book available in Australia? Yes. It is published by Allen & Unwin here. It is often on the shelves of all standard bookshops, and if not, readily available to them through Allen & Unwin. cheers, Lynne > > Cheers > > Nick Rigby > Director > Wildlife Management Branch > Queensland Department of Environment and Resource Management > Ph. 07 3405 7900 > > -----Original Message----- > -- Lynne Kelly author, educator: http://www.lynnekelly.com.au EUMY Education: http://www.eumyeducation.com From nathan_sweeting at hotmail.com Thu Apr 23 04:41:36 2009 From: nathan_sweeting at hotmail.com (nathan sweeting) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:41:36 -0400 Subject: CROCLIST: Crocodile shipping containers In-Reply-To: <5CFDA4686BA5134DA0C03C7BCE63E6AE12E610FF5D@DZS-MAILSRV.dzs.org> References: <5CFDA4686BA5134DA0C03C7BCE63E6AE12E610FF59@DZS-MAILSRV.dzs.org> <2B71F235644542C6BE617618E0AD27DE@ManumousePC> <5CFDA4686BA5134DA0C03C7BCE63E6AE12E610FF5D@DZS-MAILSRV.dzs.org> Message-ID: Jeff, I have the crate you're looking for on my porch right now (someone sent us a 4ft Nile croc in it 2 years ago) it's nothing extravagant, but very practical, capable of housing two animals if desired (removable divider). Hopefully someone will send you some pics soon, however i am going to take some pics now and try and upload them and get them to you within the next day or so. I also have another Crocodilian crate design that i used to use for hatchlings but have been tweaking so as to apply the design to Larger crocs. Its a more efficient and safer (for animal and keeper) roll-out design. I'll have to dig up my sketches but in a zoo setting this may save time, energy, and stress on everyone and the animal involved. I'll be happy to send you the sketches when i find them (they are in rough blueprint form) although it wont help you with you current task at hand as it may take a few days for me to find them. Kind regards, Nathan Sweeting From: jjundt at dzs.org To: croclist at lists.gatorhole.com Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:24:46 -0400 Subject: Re: CROCLIST: Crocodile shipping containers Thanks Manuela, I should have probably been more specific in my request to the list. I need some photos to give to the carpenters for building the crate. I?ve personally built crates before, but I need something for the carpenters to look at to build from since they haven?t done it. I don?t have any pictures of the crates that I built and I don?t want to have to be looking over the carpenter?s shoulders during the entire build process or I might as well do it myself again, which I?m trying to avoid. J Thanks again, Jeff Jeff Jundt | Curator of Reptiles Detroit Zoological Society | 8450 W. 10 Mile Rd. | Royal Oak, MI 48067 Phone: 248-541-5717 ext. 3159 || Fax: (248) 691-4194 jjundt at dzs.org Celebrating & Saving Wildlife P Please consider the environment before printing this email. This email contains information from the sender that may be confidential, legally privileged, proprietary or otherwise protected from disclosure. This email is intended for use only by the person or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure, copying, distribution, printing, or any action taken in reliance on the contents of this email, is strictly prohibited. If you received this email in error, please contact the sending party by replying in an email to the sender, delete the email from your computer system and shred any paper copies of the email you printed. From: croclist-bounces at lists.gatorhole.com [mailto:croclist-bounces at lists.gatorhole.com] On Behalf Of Manumouse Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 1:02 PM To: The Crocodilian List Subject: Re: CROCLIST: Crocodile shipping containers Hi, I have built several containers for large gators. You will have to contact the airline as well as US Fish and Wildlife regarding shipping standards. You need to make sure the crate complies with the IATA Live Animal Regulations. I made mine big enough for the gator to be comfortable but not be able and turn around. This keeps them relatively calm. Also, put some soft material on the top/lid (I used bubble wrap in the past). This prevents them hurting their heads. Of course make sure there are lots of holes in the crate. The crate needs to be pretty solid with the sides reinforced. The lid should have hinges that can easily be opened and closed. I used cable ties to close them. This allows rapid opening and closing. Hope this helps. Manuela ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Jundt To: 'The Crocodilian List' Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:32 AM Subject: CROCLIST: Crocodile shipping containers We don?t have any good containers on hand for shipping small crocodilians and will have to have one built by our carpenter shop. Does anyone have some photographs of a typical shipping crate for crocs that you can post up or send directly to me? We?re looking to build one for an animal that is ~4 feet in length. I have something in mind, but I?m sure there are a lot of good ideas out there as far as crates are concerned so would like to incorporate them if we can for this build. Thank you, Jeff Jeff Jundt | Curator of Reptiles Detroit Zoological Society | 8450 W. 10 Mile Rd. | Royal Oak, MI 48067 Phone: 248-541-5717 ext. 3159 || Fax: (248) 691-4194 jjundt at dzs.org Celebrating & Saving Wildlife P Please consider the environment before printing this email. This email contains information from the sender that may be confidential, legally privileged, proprietary or otherwise protected from disclosure. This email is intended for use only by the person or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure, copying, distribution, printing, or any action taken in reliance on the contents of this email, is strictly prohibited. If you received this email in error, please contact the sending party by replying in an email to the sender, delete the email from your computer system and shred any paper copies of the email you printed. _______________________________________________ Croclist mailing list Croclist at lists.gatorhole.com http://lists.gatorhole.com/mailman/listinfo/croclist Croclist Image Website: http://reptilians.org/croclist/ _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? Hotmail?:?more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_more_042009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090422/145d9eaf/attachment-0001.htm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 31018 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090422/145d9eaf/attachment-0001.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: imagea95baf.jpg at ebcdc100.39da4d95 Type: image/jpeg Size: 31018 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090422/145d9eaf/attachment-0002.jpg From abritton at crocodilian.com Thu Apr 23 05:08:39 2009 From: abritton at crocodilian.com (Adam Britton) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 12:38:39 +0930 Subject: CROCLIST: Crocodile shipping containers In-Reply-To: References: <5CFDA4686BA5134DA0C03C7BCE63E6AE12E610FF59@DZS-MAILSRV.dzs.org> <2B71F235644542C6BE617618E0AD27DE@ManumousePC> <5CFDA4686BA5134DA0C03C7BCE63E6AE12E610FF5D@DZS-MAILSRV.dzs.org> Message-ID: <005501c9c3c0$d2fec960$78fc5c20$@com> Hi Jeff, For smaller crocs, we've had a lot of success using PVC tubes of appropriate diameter - sufficient for the crocodile to lie comfortably, but narrow enough to prevent any significant movement. The area around the head is padded with hi-impact foam (anything which will not easily disintegrate), or alternatively the head itself is wrapped in cloth, burlap or similar securely taped to prevent it slipping. The former is a better solution if you prefer to keep the crocodile's jaws free (remember to mark which end is the pointy one!). The tube itself should have airholes drilled both above and below the crocodile (to allow fluid to drain) and the edges smoothed to prevent snagging. The ends should be capped, again with airholes / viewholes, and padding used to prevent nose abrasion. In order to meet IATA guidelines, the PCV tube must then sit inside its own crate, with padding supporting the tube to reduce shock and vibration, and to prevent the tube from rolling. Specs for animal transport crates are obviously available from most airlines. Despite having sent dozens both nationally and internationally, I don't seem to have a single photograph! But I found the PVC tube solution was the simplest, most cost-effective, and most successful. Jeff, ask Baltimore zoo if you can see their freshwater croc (C. johnstoni) tubes if they still have them. They're bigger than what you'd need but they may be able to send you photos. Cheers, Adam Big Gecko -----Original Message----- From: croclist-bounces at lists.gatorhole.com [mailto:croclist-bounces at lists.gatorhole.com] On Behalf Of nathan sweeting Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 12:12 PM To: croclist at lists.gatorhole.com Subject: Re: CROCLIST: Crocodile shipping containers Jeff, I have the crate you're looking for on my porch right now (someone sent us a 4ft Nile croc in it 2 years ago) it's nothing extravagant, but very practical, capable of housing two animals if desired (removable divider). Hopefully someone will send you some pics soon, however i am going to take some pics now and try and upload them and get them to you within the next day or so. I also have another Crocodilian crate design that i used to use for hatchlings but have been tweaking so as to apply the design to Larger crocs. Its a more efficient and safer (for animal and keeper) roll-out design. I'll have to dig up my sketches but in a zoo setting this may save time, energy, and stress on everyone and the animal involved. I'll be happy to send you the sketches when i find them (they are in rough blueprint form) although it wont help you with you current task at hand as it may take a few days for me to find them. Kind regards, Nathan Sweeting ________________________________ From: jjundt at dzs.org To: croclist at lists.gatorhole.com Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:24:46 -0400 Subject: Re: CROCLIST: Crocodile shipping containers Thanks Manuela, I should have probably been more specific in my request to the list. I need some photos to give to the carpenters for building the crate. I've personally built crates before, but I need something for the carpenters to look at to build from since they haven't done it. I don't have any pictures of the crates that I built and I don't want to have to be looking over the carpenter's shoulders during the entire build process or I might as well do it myself again, which I'm trying to avoid. :-) Thanks again, Jeff Detroit Zoological Society Jeff Jundt | Curator of Reptiles Detroit Zoological Society | 8450 W. 10 Mile Rd. | Royal Oak, MI 48067 Phone: 248-541-5717 ext. 3159 || Fax: (248) 691-4194 jjundt at dzs.org Celebrating & Saving Wildlife P Please consider the environment before printing this email. ________________________________ This email contains information from the sender that may be confidential, legally privileged, proprietary or otherwise protected from disclosure. This email is intended for use only by the person or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure, copying, distribution, printing, or any action taken in reliance on the contents of this email, is strictly prohibited. If you received this email in error, please contact the sending party by replying in an email to the sender, delete the email from your computer system and shred any paper copies of the email you printed. ________________________________ From: croclist-bounces at lists.gatorhole.com [mailto:croclist-bounces at lists.gatorhole.com] On Behalf Of Manumouse Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 1:02 PM To: The Crocodilian List Subject: Re: CROCLIST: Crocodile shipping containers Hi, I have built several containers for large gators. You will have to contact the airline as well as US Fish and Wildlife regarding shipping standards. You need to make sure the crate complies with the IATA Live Animal Regulations. I made mine big enough for the gator to be comfortable but not be able and turn around. This keeps them relatively calm. Also, put some soft material on the top/lid (I used bubble wrap in the past). This prevents them hurting their heads. Of course make sure there are lots of holes in the crate. The crate needs to be pretty solid with the sides reinforced. The lid should have hinges that can easily be opened and closed. I used cable ties to close them. This allows rapid opening and closing. Hope this helps. Manuela ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Jundt To: 'The Crocodilian List' Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:32 AM Subject: CROCLIST: Crocodile shipping containers We don't have any good containers on hand for shipping small crocodilians and will have to have one built by our carpenter shop. Does anyone have some photographs of a typical shipping crate for crocs that you can post up or send directly to me? We're looking to build one for an animal that is ~4 feet in length. I have something in mind, but I'm sure there are a lot of good ideas out there as far as crates are concerned so would like to incorporate them if we can for this build. Thank you, Jeff ________________________________ Detroit Zoological Society Jeff Jundt | Curator of Reptiles Detroit Zoological Society | 8450 W. 10 Mile Rd. | Royal Oak, MI 48067 Phone: 248-541-5717 ext. 3159 || Fax: (248) 691-4194 jjundt at dzs.org Celebrating & Saving Wildlife P Please consider the environment before printing this email. ________________________________ This email contains information from the sender that may be confidential, legally privileged, proprietary or otherwise protected from disclosure. This email is intended for use only by the person or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure, copying, distribution, printing, or any action taken in reliance on the contents of this email, is strictly prohibited. If you received this email in error, please contact the sending party by replying in an email to the sender, delete the email from your computer system and shred any paper copies of the email you printed. ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Croclist mailing list Croclist at lists.gatorhole.com http://lists.gatorhole.com/mailman/listinfo/croclist Croclist Image Website: http://reptilians.org/croclist/ ________________________________ ________________________________ Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. Check it out. From nikhil.whitaker at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 13:22:43 2009 From: nikhil.whitaker at gmail.com (Nik) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 16:52:43 +0530 Subject: CROCLIST: PIT tags Message-ID: Hi guys, I have a query about placement of PIT tags in crocodilians. Is it usually one of the front limbs? Are there any problems with migration? Any suggestions appreciated, Best Nik Nikhil Whitaker Curator Madras Crocodile Bank Trust P.O. Box 4, Mamallapuram, Tamil Nadu 603104 Mob: ++ 91 98403 79164 Fax : ++91 44 2747 2958 www.madrascrocodilebank.org http://madrascrocbank.blogspot.com I AM IN THE PROCESS OF GOING THROUGH DOZENS OF EMAILS, AND AM TRYING TO REPLY TO ALL. HOWEVER, IF I DONT REPLY IN A TIMELY FASHION PLEASE CALL ME ON 98403-79164. CHEERS -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090426/8a3cdede/attachment-0001.htm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 9922 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090426/8a3cdede/attachment-0001.jpe From abritton at crocodilian.com Sun Apr 26 15:02:39 2009 From: abritton at crocodilian.com (Adam Britton) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 22:32:39 +0930 Subject: CROCLIST: PIT tags In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000a01c9c66f$49e42dd0$ddac8970$@com> Nik, I've deployed them in the tail before... usually around the 100t/10s scutes about a third of the way down the tail. They fit nicely under the skin, and a dab of superglue prevents them from being ejected. No migration problems experienced here (tags in place 1-2 years). The other advantage of placing them in the tail is that you can wave the reader over them at a distance from the head (eg. on a pole) without the need for capture. Adam -----Original Message----- From: croclist-bounces at lists.gatorhole.com [mailto:croclist-bounces at lists.gatorhole.com] On Behalf Of Nik Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 8:53 PM To: 'The Crocodilian List' Subject: CROCLIST: PIT tags Hi guys, I have a query about placement of PIT tags in crocodilians. Is it usually one of the front limbs? Are there any problems with migration? Any suggestions appreciated, Best Nik Nikhil Whitaker Curator Madras Crocodile Bank Trust P.O. Box 4, Mamallapuram, Tamil Nadu 603104 Mob: ++ 91 98403 79164 Fax : ++91 44 2747 2958 www.madrascrocodilebank.org http://madrascrocbank.blogspot.com I AM IN THE PROCESS OF GOING THROUGH DOZENS OF EMAILS, AND AM TRYING TO REPLY TO ALL. HOWEVER, IF I DONT REPLY IN A TIMELY FASHION PLEASE CALL ME ON 98403-79164. CHEERS From will at ectotherms.net Tue Apr 28 23:40:06 2009 From: will at ectotherms.net (Will Bird) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:40:06 -0400 Subject: CROCLIST: will@ectotherms.net Message-ID: <7326616B71B84D41A7519B8A17B12CF8@willfhmzjlp022> I got this message when I signed up. To post to this list, send your email to: croclist at lists.gatorhole.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090428/97485971/attachment.htm From crocodile52 at msn.com Wed Apr 29 01:16:42 2009 From: crocodile52 at msn.com (paul Bxxxxx) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 23:16:42 +0000 Subject: CROCLIST: will@ectotherms.net In-Reply-To: <7326616B71B84D41A7519B8A17B12CF8@willfhmzjlp022> References: <7326616B71B84D41A7519B8A17B12CF8@willfhmzjlp022> Message-ID: Welcome to the List Will Bird! Truly, Paul Bodnar Crocodile Wildlife Conservationist From: will at ectotherms.net To: croclist at lists.gatorhole.com Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:40:06 -0400 Subject: CROCLIST: will at ectotherms.net I got this message when I signed up. To post to this list, send your email to: croclist at lists.gatorhole.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? Hotmail?:?more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_more_042009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090428/fa9808bd/attachment.htm From will at ectotherms.net Wed Apr 29 01:39:36 2009 From: will at ectotherms.net (Will Bird) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 19:39:36 -0400 Subject: CROCLIST: will@ectotherms.net In-Reply-To: References: <7326616B71B84D41A7519B8A17B12CF8@willfhmzjlp022> Message-ID: Thanks for the kind welcome Paul. Will _____ From: croclist-bounces at lists.gatorhole.com [mailto:croclist-bounces at lists.gatorhole.com] On Behalf Of paul Bxxxxx Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 7:17 PM To: croclist at lists.gatorhole.com Subject: Re: CROCLIST: will at ectotherms.net Welcome to the List Will Bird! Truly, Paul Bodnar Crocodile Wildlife Conservationist _____ From: will at ectotherms.net To: croclist at lists.gatorhole.com Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:40:06 -0400 Subject: CROCLIST: will at ectotherms.net I got this message when I signed up. To post to this list, send your email to: croclist at lists.gatorhole.com _____ Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. Check it out. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090428/5250c43e/attachment.htm