From jjundt at dzs.org Wed Jul 29 20:51:00 2009 From: jjundt at dzs.org (Jeff Jundt) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:51:00 -0400 Subject: CROCLIST: Callagurs in w/sinensis?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5CFDA4686BA5134DA0C03C7BCE63E6AE969C9A6D64@DZS-MAILSRV.dzs.org> Has anyone ever kept any large turtles in with Chinese gators? I'd like to move one or more painted terrapins into the pool in this animal's enclosure. The turtles are 2-3 times the size of the gators head and my only real worry is the gator trying to bite at a leg or head. If anyone has tried turtles in with sinensis let me know. Thanks, Jeff ________________________________ [cid:image9a2cf7.jpg at 27ba451d.18104778] Jeff Jundt | Curator of Reptiles Detroit Zoological Society | 8450 W. 10 Mile Rd. | Royal Oak, MI 48067 Phone: 248-541-5717 ext. 3159 || Fax: (248) 691-4194 jjundt at dzs.org Celebrating & Saving Wildlife P Please consider the environment before printing this email. ________________________________ This email contains information from the sender that may be confidential, legally privileged, proprietary or otherwise protected from disclosure. This email is intended for use only by the person or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure, copying, distribution, printing, or any action taken in reliance on the contents of this email, is strictly prohibited. If you received this email in error, please contact the sending party by replying in an email to the sender, delete the email from your computer system and shred any paper copies of the email you printed. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090729/cf097425/attachment-0001.htm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image9a2cf7.jpg at 27ba451d.18104778 Type: image/jpeg Size: 31018 bytes Desc: image9a2cf7.jpg at 27ba451d.18104778 Url : http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090729/cf097425/attachment-0001.jpg From nathan_sweeting at hotmail.com Wed Jul 29 21:22:55 2009 From: nathan_sweeting at hotmail.com (nathan sweeting) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:22:55 -0400 Subject: CROCLIST: Callagurs in w/sinensis?? In-Reply-To: <5CFDA4686BA5134DA0C03C7BCE63E6AE969C9A6D64@DZS-MAILSRV.dzs.org> References: <5CFDA4686BA5134DA0C03C7BCE63E6AE969C9A6D64@DZS-MAILSRV.dzs.org> Message-ID: In the past we had much success with housing turtles and American alligators together. We just made certain that the turtles in the enclosure were too large for the alligators to be able to grip onto the shell. The turles did very well and actually managed to antagonize the alligators and effectively compete for the same food.. We had two large turtles housed with 50 7-8ft Amercan Alligators... As long as the turtles are too large for the sinensis to crush they and their limbs should be fine.. our concern in other situations, with other groups of gators, crocs, and turltles, was that often times the turtle were the ones biting the toes and tails of the crocodilians... for that reason alone size ratio on both ends of that spectrum is important... I hope this is helpful... Nathan Sweeting From: jjundt at dzs.org To: croclist at lists.gatorhole.com; croctalk at lists.aza.org Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:51:00 -0400 Subject: CROCLIST: Callagurs in w/sinensis?? Has anyone ever kept any large turtles in with Chinese gators? I?d like to move one or more painted terrapins into the pool in this animal?s enclosure. The turtles are 2-3 times the size of the gators head and my only real worry is the gator trying to bite at a leg or head. If anyone has tried turtles in with sinensis let me know. Thanks, Jeff Jeff Jundt | Curator of Reptiles Detroit Zoological Society | 8450 W. 10 Mile Rd. | Royal Oak, MI 48067 Phone: 248-541-5717 ext. 3159 || Fax: (248) 691-4194 jjundt at dzs.org Celebrating & Saving Wildlife P Please consider the environment before printing this email. This email contains information from the sender that may be confidential, legally privileged, proprietary or otherwise protected from disclosure. This email is intended for use only by the person or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure, copying, distribution, printing, or any action taken in reliance on the contents of this email, is strictly prohibited. If you received this email in error, please contact the sending party by replying in an email to the sender, delete the email from your computer system and shred any paper copies of the email you printed. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? Hotmail?: Celebrate the moment with your favorite sports pics. Check it out. http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_QA_HM_sports_photos_072009&cat=sports -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090729/36e19b5a/attachment-0001.htm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image9a2cf7.jpg at 27ba451d.18104778 Type: image/jpeg Size: 31018 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090729/36e19b5a/attachment-0001.jpe From pisces842001 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 29 21:51:45 2009 From: pisces842001 at yahoo.com (Chris Law) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:51:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CROCLIST: Callagurs in w/sinensis?? In-Reply-To: <5CFDA4686BA5134DA0C03C7BCE63E6AE969C9A6D64@DZS-MAILSRV.dzs.org> References: <5CFDA4686BA5134DA0C03C7BCE63E6AE969C9A6D64@DZS-MAILSRV.dzs.org> Message-ID: <562015.62531.qm@web30408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Jeff, The Cincinnati Zoo in Ohio has (or still is) keeping Red Eared Sliders (locality unknown) in with 4-5 Adult A. sinensis. However, the captive environment for the alligators, I had some concerns for. The enclosure was rather small, not enough basking space, and as many alligators were in the enclosure, coupled with several of the RES's...this could have created some stress for the animals. Additionally, RES's are notorious toe-biters. Upon speaking with the keepers, they claimed that they "haven't noticed any issues". This doesn't always mean much though...but just thought I'd bring it up since you asked. Chris ________________________________ From: Jeff Jundt To: The Crocodilian List ; "croctalk at lists.aza.org" Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 2:51:00 PM Subject: CROCLIST: Callagurs in w/sinensis?? Has anyone ever kept any large turtles in with Chinese gators? I?d like to move one or more painted terrapins into the pool in this animal?s enclosure. The turtles are 2-3 times the size of the gators head and my only real worry is the gator trying to bite at a leg or head. If anyone has tried turtles in with sinensis let me know. Thanks, Jeff ________________________________ Jeff Jundt | Curator of Reptiles Detroit Zoological Society | 8450 W. 10 Mile Rd.| Royal Oak, MI 48067 Phone: 248-541-5717 ext. 3159 || Fax: (248) 691-4194 jjundt at dzs.org Celebrating & Saving Wildlife PPlease consider the environment before printing this email. ________________________________ This email contains information from the sender that may be confidential, legally privileged, proprietary or otherwise protected from disclosure. This email is intended for use only by the person or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure, copying, distribution, printing, or any action taken in reliance on the contents of this email, is strictly prohibited. If you received this email in error, please contact the sending party by replying in an email to the sender, delete the email from your computer system and shred any paper copies of the email you printed. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090729/405f977f/attachment.htm From stuartandlynette at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 29 22:02:58 2009 From: stuartandlynette at yahoo.co.uk (Stuart) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 21:02:58 +0100 Subject: CROCLIST: Croclist Digest, Vol 56, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've not kept Chinese alligators, but have kept spectacled caiman with Red ears before and only ever had one casualty. An adult female red ear who was far too greedy climbed into the caimans mouth to steal some nice fresh trout. She walked away and lived for another 10 years (But not with the caiman!) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 8:23 PM Subject: Croclist Digest, Vol 56, Issue 2 > Send Croclist mailing list submissions to > croclist at lists.gatorhole.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.gatorhole.com/mailman/listinfo/croclist > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > croclist-request at lists.gatorhole.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > croclist-owner at lists.gatorhole.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Croclist digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Callagurs in w/sinensis?? (nathan sweeting) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:22:55 -0400 > From: nathan sweeting > Subject: Re: CROCLIST: Callagurs in w/sinensis?? > To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > > In the past we had much success with housing turtles and American > alligators together. We just made certain that the turtles in the > enclosure were too large for the alligators to be able to grip onto the > shell. The turles did very well and actually managed to antagonize the > alligators and effectively compete for the same food.. We had two large > turtles housed with 50 7-8ft Amercan Alligators... > > > > As long as the turtles are too large for the sinensis to crush they and > their limbs should be fine.. our concern in other situations, with other > groups of gators, crocs, and turltles, was that often times the turtle > were the ones biting the toes and tails of the crocodilians... for that > reason alone size ratio on both ends of that spectrum is important... > > > > I hope this is helpful... > > > > Nathan Sweeting > > > > From: jjundt at dzs.org > To: croclist at lists.gatorhole.com; croctalk at lists.aza.org > Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:51:00 -0400 > Subject: CROCLIST: Callagurs in w/sinensis?? > > > > > > > Has anyone ever kept any large turtles in with Chinese gators? I?d like to > move one or more painted terrapins into the pool in this animal?s > enclosure. The turtles are 2-3 times the size of the gators head and my > only real worry is the gator trying to bite at a leg or head. If anyone > has tried turtles in with sinensis let me know. > Thanks, > Jeff > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jeff Jundt | Curator of Reptiles > Detroit Zoological Society | 8450 W. 10 Mile Rd. | Royal Oak, MI 48067 > Phone: 248-541-5717 ext. 3159 || Fax: (248) 691-4194 > jjundt at dzs.org > > > > Celebrating & Saving Wildlife > > > > > > > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > This email contains information from the sender that may be confidential, > legally privileged, proprietary or otherwise protected from disclosure. > This email is intended for use only by the person or entity to whom it is > addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure, > copying, distribution, printing, or any action taken in reliance on the > contents of this email, is strictly prohibited. If you received this email > in error, please contact the sending party by replying in an email to the > sender, delete the email from your computer system and shred any paper > copies of the email you printed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live? Hotmail?: Celebrate the moment with your favorite sports > pics. Check it out. > http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_QA_HM_sports_photos_072009&cat=sports > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090729/36e19b5a/attachment.htm > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: image9a2cf7.jpg at 27ba451d.18104778 > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 31018 bytes > Desc: not available > Url : > http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090729/36e19b5a/attachment.jpe > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Croclist mailing list > Croclist at lists.gatorhole.com > http://lists.gatorhole.com/mailman/listinfo/croclist > > > End of Croclist Digest, Vol 56, Issue 2 > *************************************** From jjundt at dzs.org Wed Jul 29 23:33:45 2009 From: jjundt at dzs.org (Jeff Jundt) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 17:33:45 -0400 Subject: CROCLIST: [Croctalk] Callagurs in w/sinensis?? In-Reply-To: <9B075A4C00AC004191F2A8C73EB78E627DB9E5@MAILC-EVS.norfolk.gov> References: <5CFDA4686BA5134DA0C03C7BCE63E6AE969C9A6D64@DZS-MAILSRV.dzs.org> <9B075A4C00AC004191F2A8C73EB78E627DB9E5@MAILC-EVS.norfolk.gov> Message-ID: <5CFDA4686BA5134DA0C03C7BCE63E6AE969C9A6D6A@DZS-MAILSRV.dzs.org> Thanks Craig and thank you to everyone else that responded. There seems to be an overwhelming positive response that it has and can be done with few problems, so I'll likely go ahead soon with introductions. Thanks again for all the quick responses. Cheers, Jeff [cid:imageb554a7.jpg at 6bc6b94f.384742d2] Jeff Jundt | Curator of Reptiles Detroit Zoological Society | 8450 W. 10 Mile Rd. | Royal Oak, MI 48067 Phone: 248-541-5717 ext. 3159 || Fax: (248) 691-4194 jjundt at dzs.org Celebrating & Saving Wildlife P Please consider the environment before printing this email. ________________________________ This email contains information from the sender that may be confidential, legally privileged, proprietary or otherwise protected from disclosure. This email is intended for use only by the person or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure, copying, distribution, printing, or any action taken in reliance on the contents of this email, is strictly prohibited. If you received this email in error, please contact the sending party by replying in an email to the sender, delete the email from your computer system and shred any paper copies of the email you printed. ________________________________ From: croctalk-bounces at lists.aza.org [mailto:croctalk-bounces at lists.aza.org] On Behalf Of Pelke, Craig Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 4:55 PM To: Crocodilian Discussions OPEN; The Crocodilian List Subject: Re: [Croctalk] Callagurs in w/sinensis?? Hi Jeff, We tried and succeeded with 0.3 adult Red-eared Sliders sharing an exhibit with 1.1 mature sinensis in Milwaukee while I was there. There was some initial "jawing" of the turtles, leaving a few scratches, but these were "small" adult sinensis and very large RE Sliders. This stopped ~3 weeks after the intro. This was done initially to test the sinensis to see if we could add "true" Asian turtles to the mix in the future...the sliders were guinea pigs basically. The biggest problem I saw was getting food to the gators...the sliders really enjoyed mice when they could get them and seemed much more food motivated than the gators. The addition of the sliders really livened up the exhibit from the public's viewpoint, but the mixture seemed to increase the gator activity in a positive way as well. I have since left, so I am not sure if they got to the point of adding Asian species of turtle yet. Hope this helps, Craig Pelke Curator, Reptiles & Amphibians Virginia Zoological Park 3500 Granby St. Norfolk, VA 23504 757-441-5227 x273 craig.pelke at norfolk.gov www.virginiazoo.org ________________________________ From: croctalk-bounces at lists.aza.org [mailto:croctalk-bounces at lists.aza.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Jundt Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 2:51 PM To: 'The Crocodilian List'; croctalk at lists.aza.org Subject: [Croctalk] Callagurs in w/sinensis?? Has anyone ever kept any large turtles in with Chinese gators? I'd like to move one or more painted terrapins into the pool in this animal's enclosure. The turtles are 2-3 times the size of the gators head and my only real worry is the gator trying to bite at a leg or head. If anyone has tried turtles in with sinensis let me know. Thanks, Jeff ________________________________ [cid:image001.jpg at 01CA1072.B9498600] Jeff Jundt | Curator of Reptiles Detroit Zoological Society | 8450 W. 10 Mile Rd. | Royal Oak, MI 48067 Phone: 248-541-5717 ext. 3159 || Fax: (248) 691-4194 jjundt at dzs.org Celebrating & Saving Wildlife P Please consider the environment before printing this email. ________________________________ This email contains information from the sender that may be confidential, legally privileged, proprietary or otherwise protected from disclosure. This email is intended for use only by the person or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure, copying, distribution, printing, or any action taken in reliance on the contents of this email, is strictly prohibited. If you received this email in error, please contact the sending party by replying in an email to the sender, delete the email from your computer system and shred any paper copies of the email you printed. ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090729/c7bfebfd/attachment-0001.htm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 31018 bytes Desc: image001.jpg Url : http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090729/c7bfebfd/attachment-0001.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: imageb554a7.jpg at 6bc6b94f.384742d2 Type: image/jpeg Size: 31018 bytes Desc: imageb554a7.jpg at 6bc6b94f.384742d2 Url : http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090729/c7bfebfd/attachment-0001.jpe From ragnar at lonn.org Thu Jul 30 10:59:44 2009 From: ragnar at lonn.org (Ragnar Lonn) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 10:59:44 +0200 Subject: CROCLIST: Croclist Digest, Vol 56, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A716100.3050709@lonn.org> I've kept a red ear with my caiman for some time, and it worked fairly well. They did however, fight some over food. The turtles are very fast and this one (Anders, we called him) almost always managed to pull head and limbs into its shell when the caiman tried to bite. Once, though, the turtle tried to steal food from the mouth of the caiman and the caiman managed to bite and grip the head of the turtle. I thought "uh no, Anders has had it this time". They sat still for a little while and then the caiman flicked its head and the turtle flew in an arc to land a bit further away in the water. I thought his neck would surely be broken, or the head severed, but he was fine. Actually there wasn't even a visible scratch on him. Like people here have said, the turtle tend to bite the caiman more than the other way around though. I saw this turtle bite the caiman on several occasions, in the tail and in the toes. He would always try to steal the food from the caiman. I would not keep large turtles with small caimans. As you can see on this picture, the turtle had little fear for the caiman: http://lonn.org/ragnar/croc/anbert3.jpg /Ragnar Stuart wrote: > I've not kept Chinese alligators, but have kept spectacled caiman with Red > ears before and only ever had one casualty. An adult female red ear who was > far too greedy climbed into the caimans mouth to steal some nice fresh > trout. > > She walked away and lived for another 10 years (But not with the caiman!) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 8:23 PM > Subject: Croclist Digest, Vol 56, Issue 2 > > > >> Send Croclist mailing list submissions to >> croclist at lists.gatorhole.com >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.gatorhole.com/mailman/listinfo/croclist >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> croclist-request at lists.gatorhole.com >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> croclist-owner at lists.gatorhole.com >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Croclist digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Callagurs in w/sinensis?? (nathan sweeting) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:22:55 -0400 >> From: nathan sweeting >> Subject: Re: CROCLIST: Callagurs in w/sinensis?? >> To: >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >> >> >> In the past we had much success with housing turtles and American >> alligators together. We just made certain that the turtles in the >> enclosure were too large for the alligators to be able to grip onto the >> shell. The turles did very well and actually managed to antagonize the >> alligators and effectively compete for the same food.. We had two large >> turtles housed with 50 7-8ft Amercan Alligators... >> >> >> >> As long as the turtles are too large for the sinensis to crush they and >> their limbs should be fine.. our concern in other situations, with other >> groups of gators, crocs, and turltles, was that often times the turtle >> were the ones biting the toes and tails of the crocodilians... for that >> reason alone size ratio on both ends of that spectrum is important... >> >> >> >> I hope this is helpful... >> >> >> >> Nathan Sweeting >> >> >> >> From: jjundt at dzs.org >> To: croclist at lists.gatorhole.com; croctalk at lists.aza.org >> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:51:00 -0400 >> Subject: CROCLIST: Callagurs in w/sinensis?? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Has anyone ever kept any large turtles in with Chinese gators? I?d like to >> move one or more painted terrapins into the pool in this animal?s >> enclosure. The turtles are 2-3 times the size of the gators head and my >> only real worry is the gator trying to bite at a leg or head. If anyone >> has tried turtles in with sinensis let me know. >> Thanks, >> Jeff >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Jeff Jundt | Curator of Reptiles >> Detroit Zoological Society | 8450 W. 10 Mile Rd. | Royal Oak, MI 48067 >> Phone: 248-541-5717 ext. 3159 || Fax: (248) 691-4194 >> jjundt at dzs.org >> >> >> >> Celebrating & Saving Wildlife >> >> >> >> >> >> >> P Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> This email contains information from the sender that may be confidential, >> legally privileged, proprietary or otherwise protected from disclosure. >> This email is intended for use only by the person or entity to whom it is >> addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure, >> copying, distribution, printing, or any action taken in reliance on the >> contents of this email, is strictly prohibited. If you received this email >> in error, please contact the sending party by replying in an email to the >> sender, delete the email from your computer system and shred any paper >> copies of the email you printed. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Windows Live? Hotmail?: Celebrate the moment with your favorite sports >> pics. Check it out. >> http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_QA_HM_sports_photos_072009&cat=sports >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090729/36e19b5a/attachment.htm >> -------------- next part -------------- >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: image9a2cf7.jpg at 27ba451d.18104778 >> Type: image/jpeg >> Size: 31018 bytes >> Desc: not available >> Url : >> http://lists.gatorhole.com/pipermail/croclist/attachments/20090729/36e19b5a/attachment.jpe >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Croclist mailing list >> Croclist at lists.gatorhole.com >> http://lists.gatorhole.com/mailman/listinfo/croclist >> >> >> End of Croclist Digest, Vol 56, Issue 2 >> *************************************** >> > > _______________________________________________ > Croclist mailing list > Croclist at lists.gatorhole.com > http://lists.gatorhole.com/mailman/listinfo/croclist > Croclist Image Website: http://reptilians.org/croclist/ >